ANNOUNCEMENT: defederating effective immediately from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works
hey folks, we'll be quick and to the point with this one:
we have made the decision to defederate from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works. we recognize this is hugely inconvenient for a wide variety of reasons, but we think this is a decision we need to take immediately. the remainder of the post details our thoughts and decision-making on why this is necessary.
we have been concerned with how sustainable the explosion of new users on Lemmy is--particularly with federation in mind--basically since it began. i have already related how difficult dealing with the explosion has been just constrained to this instance for us four Admins, and increasingly we're being confronted with external vectors we have to deal with that have further stressed our capabilities (elaborated on below).
an unfortunate reality we've also found is we just don't have the tools or the time here to parse out all the good from all the bad. all we have is a nuke and some pretty rudimentary mod powers that don't scale well. we have a list of improvements we'd like to see both on the moderation side of Lemmy and federation if at all possible--but we're unanimous in the belief that we can't wait on what we want to be developed here. separately, we want to do this now, while the band-aid can be ripped off with substantially less pain.
aside from/complementary to what's mentioned above, our reason for defederating, by and large, boils down to:
these two instances' open registration policy, which is extremely problematic for us given how federation works and how trivial it makes trolling, harassment, and other undesirable behavior;
the disproportionate number of moderator actions we take against users of these two instances, and the general amount of time we have to dedicate to bad actors on those two instances;
our need to preserve not only a moderated community but a vibe and general feeling this is actually a safe space for our users to participate in;
and the reality that fulfilling our ethos is simply not possible when we not only have to account for our own users but have to account for literally tens of thousands of new, completely unvetted users, some of whom explicitly see spaces like this as desirable to troll and disrupt and others of whom simply don't care about what our instance stands for
as Gaywallet puts it, in our discussion of whether to do this:
There's a lot of soft moderating that happens, where people step in to diffuse tense situations. But it's not just that, there's a vibe that comes along with it. Most people need a lot of trust and support to open up, and it's really hard to trust and support who's around you when there are bad actors. People shut themselves off in various ways when there's more hostility around them. They'll even shut themselves off when there's fake nice behavior around. There's a lot of nuance in modding a community like this and it's not just where we take moderator actions- sometimes people need to step in to diffuse, to negotiate, to help people grow. This only works when everyone is on the same page about our ethos and right now we can't even assess that for people who aren't from our instance, so we're walking a tightrope by trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. That isn't sustainable forever and especially not in the face of massive growth on such a short timeframe.
Explicitly safe spaces in real life typically aren't open to having strangers walk in off the street, even if they have a bouncer to throw problematic people out. A single negative interaction might require a lot of energy to undo.
and, to reiterate: we understand that a lot of people legitimately and fairly use these instances, and this is going to be painful while it's in effect. but we hope you can understand why we're doing this. our words, when we talk about building something better here, are not idle platitudes, and we are not out to build a space that grows at any cost. we want a better space, and we think this is necessary to do that right now. if you disagree we understand that, but we hope you can if nothing else come away with the understanding it was an informed decision.
this is also not a permanent judgement (or a moral one on the part of either community's owner, i should add--we just have differing interests here and that's fine). in the future as tools develop, cultures settle, attitudes and interest change, and the wave of newcomers settles down, we'll reassess whether we feel capable of refederating with these communities.
Unfortunate situation, but I understand the lack of tools to deal with it left you guys no choice.
Do you happen to know how long this defederation is going to take? Or rather, are tools being developed as we speak or still being discussed? Im glad this is temporary yet if its gonna be like this for years itd prove to be very limiting and isolating.
I also understand its not easy to give the mod position to anyone who requests it, but id encourage you to look for the right people in a more vehement manner. It would be downright frustrating if this situation happens again due to a lack of manpower.
One last thing: The defederation being effective Inmediately was very detrimental to users who subscribed to comms from those instances. Its already shocking to lose access to a comm you were a part of, a heads up and a couple hours/a day would help many of us be at least aware of the situation and not be blindsighted by it. I understand the pressure to do it asap, but i still think it should be notified beforehand.
Do you happen to know how long this defederation is going to take? Or rather, are tools being developed as we speak or still being discussed? Im glad this is temporary yet if its gonna be like this for years itd prove to be very limiting and isolating.
no ETA but we're in touch with the sh.itjust.works admin right now on how to move forward/ways to resolve that defed. we've also pointed people at an idea of what we'd ideally want a few times in this thread--we'll hopefully have more formal tool ideas publicized/github issues filed in the near future
I also understand its not easy to give the mod position to anyone who requests it, but id encourage you to look for the right people in a more vehement manner. It would be downright frustrating if this situation happens again due to a lack of manpower.
i'll reiterate another comment i made somewhere in this huge thread:
we have a finite number of man-hours to work with, and trolling can disproportionately burn through those. while we can improve the number of man-hours by throwing more mods at it, there’s still:
only so much we and those mods can do with what the tools we have;
and only so many people willing to be mods that we also trust to wield those tools, particularly given the recency of the bulk of our membership.
additionally, the mods have a finite amount of time to work with themselves, and it’s just not reasonable to constantly lean on them for what is ultimately unpaid, not-infrequently-distressing volunteer work
Good to hear. I have an account with both and, at least locally there, I haven't seen much. There was an account spamming that I reported. Hopefully we can get to a resolution that works for all as this is a big turn off for what felt like the purpose of Lemmy which was to get away from decisions directly made for the user base. I understand that the development is not at a place that can really handle this large influx of users which is a bummer as it will likely result in people not using Lemmy to the level it may have gotten to. I guess we'll see what happens next.