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This is gonna be an unpopular opinion here but telling people who have used Windows their entire lives to just switch to Linux as if it's that easy is entirely unhelpful and makes the Linux community look elitist and out of touch.
Life is a long learning experience. Installing (or asking that nerdy relative to install) a Linux distro is no biggie anymore and when picking a good all-around distro like Mint, for example, pretty much anyone who has some basic experience on computers can do it.
I do agree that life is a learning experience, but I might say that you're overestimating what "basic experience on computers" means, and I tend to find that this is fairly typical of people who have more advanced skills because this stuff is basic to us. But we can sometimes lack perspective in that regard.
Basic experience on computers for most people means "can use Office apps, can send emails, can more or less use the internet". Essentially, they can use the computer for their work or for some light entertainment. It certainly doesn't mean that they know how to or that they even can configure the BIOS to boot from a USB, or for that matter what the BIOS is or that it exists. It doesn't mean that they can use the terminal, or use WINE to run their favourite Windows applications or troubleshoot an operating system that is entirely alien to them. I'd even go as far as to say that most people don't even know what an operating system is - to them, Windows is the computer and they don't know or care about anything different. This is the kind of person I'm talking about. Everything you said might as well be Ancient Greek to that person.
Relevant XKCD
I get it. That's why I included the part about "the family tech guy". And I think some sparkle of interest must be had in order to learn about that stuff. Or any stuff, like learning Ancient Greek. One has to be able to use a web search (or write a prompt to an LLM) for "beginner install linux" or some such. If the spark isn't there, maybe buying a new Windows/Mac is the correct way to go.
I can read the manual that comes with a camera and it will teach me how to set it up and take some pictures. Most (at least all that I've used) linux distros have something similar. Unless there's some sort of incompatibility with your system it should not be an issue. If you do have problems you get to choose whether or not to troubleshoot them but in my experience doing so on Linux is a lot easier.
When I first set up Ubuntu I was astonished by the fact that I could just download a windows executable and double-click to start it. But I loved how simple it was to download stuff using the package manager.
I had a bit of experience with the Windows terminal and had been coding for two years at that point so I was able to almost fully switch over within two weeks and found it significantly easier.
I mean... they are out of touch. I'm sure its possible to have a pain free switch over but when I had trouble the advice was interspersed with quite a few caveats. In essence Linux is 'easy to setup but...' Still gonna try again though, also guys that laptop you all said was dying because linux made it crash is still working fine on windows with no sign of trouble.
I think I understand your broader point as saying that a switch to Linux being as simple as switching from Coors to Miller is underselling the fact that Linux is a fairly different environment/ecosystem. You’re right on that. But as someone who’s made a switch to Linux (Ubuntu) after a lifetime of other OS use, I have to say that I think it’s worth it, even with the learning curve.
I have been exclusively a Mac user and Apple cultist for at least twenty years now and only knew Windows (3.0-ME) prior to that. I have a few 2011 Intel Macs that I use for work and home exclusively (two of which were hand-me-downs) and have not been receiving updates for awhile now. I’m not in the financial position to buy a new computer and I randomly read that Ubuntu runs great on these old Macs. So I decided to give it a try. It was a bit of work that was bolstered by the fact that I do have a bit more computer know-how than the average person (but nowhere near most of the people I see on the Fediverse). But I’ve come to love it and am now working my way over to this being a permanent change.
I’m only sharing this as an example that even deeply entrenched people can learn to use this stuff. And I was a Mac guy! Apple holds your hands and does so much thinking for you! I’d think with Windows, the switch over to something like Mint would be fairly easy, given the GUI (I specifically chose Ubuntu over Mint because Mint’s GUI is described as “Windows-like” and I personally hate all things Microsoft—which is definitely a “me problem” lol—but I’m probably going to load it onto an older ThinkPad of my wife’s that we want to set up for our son).
It’s easier to use than Windows
Just give GUI troubleshooting instead of CLI
It’s easier to use than Windows
LOL, good one!
I especially loved the user friendliness of my distro randomly disconnecting my BT mouse and refusing to reconnect. Had to edit grub to get it back to working order.
Or how I changed the lock screen image through settings. Now I can see it - in Settings. Only. Because if I lock my device, I still see the old one.
Or how on Kubuntu, my previous distro, the applications' menu (the one with "File", "View", "Help", etc.) just disappeared from all apps. Spent two days trying to sort it out and ended up switching to Tuxedo OS.
Such an easy to use OS, especially for those who've never done one bit of troubleshooting themselves!
Spoken like someone who hasn’t had to troubleshoot Windows
Could that be because he's had fewer issues with Windows and hasn't had a need to troubleshoot it?
Windows 11 is a shitty version of Windows, but it's not Windows ME or Vista. It sucks because of the arbitrary CPU and TPM requirements, plus having AI forced into a user's desktop. Not to mention Microsoft is dragging its feet fixing performance issues in Explorer.
It's still very stable on good hardware with stable drivers. Point out the actual shit parts of Windows, not lazy callbacks to the days of Windows 98.
2080 ti and 128gb of ram - it is definitely not stable and unlike Linux isn’t ready out of the box
So you can afford 128GB of ram, a motherboard that can support that, a processor that can address that... and you're running a 2080ti?
It's such an odd configuration I wouldn't be surprised if the Nvidia driver were causing the issue. Contrary to the concept of a "unified driver," the code for your GPU probably hasn't been touched by nvidia in a while. Either that, or maybe you've got all that hardware, but you're running Windows 8 or something else odd.
W10/11
And yes the gpu needs an upgrade, but I don’t have a server in need of it yet so it stays in my personal computer
And on Linux it handles everything I need
I am not going to troubleshoot this via Lemmy, but it does sound interesting. The fact that you specifically mention the combination of your GPU plus the 128GB of RAM still suggests to me that it's a hardware or driver issue.
Windows has supported 128GB of RAM since Windows XP x64 Edition.
You seem to be confused. We're talking about an "OS for the masses". What you're talking about is so far beyond the "high end for the top tier enthusiasts" that it's not even funny.
If Windows doesn’t work on that, then it’s not for the masses
Sure, mate. 128 GB of RAM is clearly "for the masses". :D
To quote the classic: "the best thing about Linux is the community. The worst thing about Linux is the community".
Did you even read what I said?
If Windows needs more than 128gb of ram then it’s not for the masses because the masses have less than that
What are you trying to argue here, mate?
We're talking about OSes for the average user. You said that Windows with 128 GB is "not stable and not ready out of the box, unlike Linux".
Then you said "if it doesn't work on that, then it's not for the masses".
So what exactly is your point?
It seems like a weird middle-ground that might be used in a weird 5 year old server. Probably not great for gaming. But I too had stability issues with all of my windows installations. (1.5 laptops, a prebuilt and later the machine I use now which I started using with windows) All of them had regular BSODs (though the laptops were a little older and might not always have been that way) and one pc even broke the Windows Bootloader so that I couldn't boot it anymore.
Out of curiosity - were you using any "debloaters" or other scripts/apps that were supposed to "fix" or "speed up" Windows?
Nope, I wasn't really aware of such things, I bet they would have helped though. Now that I think about it the one laptop had a weird antivirus software preinstalled which caused quite a few problems too.
I bet they would have helped though
No, they wouldn't. I've seen so many posts on r/techsupport and r/windows from people complaining about Search or other OS functions not working. They always claimed that they "did nothing", only afterwards it would turn out they used some of that crap software, which broke half the OS.
laptop had a weird antivirus software preinstalled
That could've been the reason for A LOT of problems too.
Let me put it this way: me, my family, and my business all run essentially clean Windows + Defender. Nothing else. And by "clean" I mean: install from ISO, leave as is.
Last time I had a BSOD was three years ago which was around 6 years since the previous one.
Meanwhile, the Tuxedo OS that I'm running right now (and, generally, enjoy very much) just hung up completely when I put it to sleep and then awoke. As in: not even the cursor moved when I moved the mouse, had to hard reset the thing. Things like that just don't happen in the Windows world these days.
Could that be because he’s had fewer issues with Windows and hasn’t had a need to troubleshoot it?
It's actually the opposite. Worked in IT for 20 years, had to troubleshoot every conceivable issue with Windows.
Here's the difference: 90% of the time, once you've installed the OS, it's smooth sailing*. If it's not, reboot, and it will be fine. For the fringe cases, just search online to find help.
This last bit is what kills Linux as "user-friendly OS" - you have one distro, but solutions you find are for five different distros and each one looks and feels slightly differently, so things are in different places.
EDIT:
* I should've added: TODAY. It used to be VERY different, but these days? It's mostly "fire and forget".
I've also spent my fair share of time in IT. I can't recall any common issue with the reliability of Windows in the enterprise. Single user issues that originally appeared to be an OS problem later turned out to be caused by hardware. Usually hard disks, though I did find a bad stick of RAM once.
The vast majority of issues I typically saw were application related, usually industry specific software. What I did come to hate was industry applications written to run on the Java Runtime environment. Especially when a user needed several different apps which were not all compatible with a common JRE version. There's DLL hell, dependency hell, and then there's JRE hell.
1000% this!
Here's the problem with sweeping statements on the Internet like the one you just did - you never know who you're talking to.
You have no clue how hilarious your comment reads from the perspective of someone who's worked in IT for the past 20 years. :D
Here's the difference between Linux and Windows TODAY (that's a CRITICAL point) - the average user gets the OS installed, fires it up and just uses it. If there's a problem, a reboot will fix it 99% of the time. For that 1% there's a bajillion different forums where they'll find help.
Now, Linux? You install it, fire it up, and it runs without issues. Or it doesn't! You use an app, and it works - or it doesn't! You start searching for solutions online and find that the issue you've had has been resolved but on a different distro, things look different on yours and you have no clue how to proceed.
Windows is not a perfect OS, but it's as good as it gets (next to MacOS) in terms of "I'm John, this is my first computer, I just learned how to log in and now I want to have some fun". Linux is FAR from that, still.
Empirically, you are getting Windows and Linux mixed up
Also more end user devices are Linux than Windows
Linux is ideal for people who don’t want to spend all day troubleshooting and not getting anywhere. It’s for people who want things to just work without extra effort
Can’t compare to Mac personally
Empirically, you are getting Windows and Linux mixed up
I'm honestly not sure you understand what "empirically" means... But I might be wrong! Please elaborate!
Also more end user devices are Linux than Windows
Yes, nowadays especially, when people are trying to "stick it to the US". Which doesn't change the fact that most of these will return to Windows within 6 months, and even with them it's still an insignificant minority compared to the hegemony of Windows and MacOS.
Linux is ideal for people who don’t want to spend all day troubleshooting and not getting anywhere
I'm sorry, WHAT?
It’s for people who want things to just work without extra effort
You have GOT TO be joking right now...
Please elaborate!
Through my own experiences not just what I’ve read. Constantly being asked to fix “Windows not working” and there never being any fixes found
stick it to the US”
Google and Valve are US companies so I don’t think people are sticking it to the US when they use their products
I’m sorry, WHAT?
Install and forget, the only issue I’ve had that isn’t a 5 minute fix is a broken pipe error on updates that doesn’t interfere with anything.
You have GOT TO be joking right now…
Have you tried either? Windows is always blue screening, black screening, or having apps freeze
Through my own experiences not just what I’ve read
Right. You can't say "empirically [based on my hands-on experience] YOU are getting things mixed up". That's not how reality works.
It's like saying: "I just ate great breakfast, therefore world hunger doesn't exist".
ESPECIALLY with things as fragmented as Linux.
Google and Valve are US companies so I don’t think people are sticking it to the US when they use their products
More and more people are getting interested in /e/OS, GrapheneOS, and LineageOS, turning away from Google. Valve is always considered to be "that one good company" so they're in a pretty good spot, but even with that, more people are showing interest in GOG than before.
Install and forget, the only issue I’ve had that isn’t a 5 minute fix is a broken pipe error on updates that doesn’t interfere with anything.
I'm really glad you had a great experience with Linux, truly. Now go and read my first comment in this thread to see the other side of the fence.
Have you tried either?
See above.
Windows is always blue screening, black screening, or having apps freeze
When was the last time you tried Windows? 20 years ago? 15 years ago? Because "always blue screening" suggests something like that.
Windows 10 and 11 are on par with MacOS in terms of stability, mate.
Right. You can’t say “empirically [based on my hands-on experience] YOU are getting things mixed up”. That’s not how reality works.
It’s like saying: “I just ate great breakfast, therefore world hunger doesn’t exist”.
It’s support for others, how else do I empirically test it?
Hold on... You're saying that you supported other people using Linux, and NEVER encountered ANY issues?
I don't believe you. :)
Windows never has issues, does it?
Not like that, it doesn't.
I've never heard of someone using bcdedit to change a boot flag, so a Bluetooth adapter will behave.
The lock screen problem I've seen myself a while back. At least in my case, I did not have permissions to the session manager config file, and the gui tool did not account for that. But I think I had to install the tool from the repo. It wasn't part of the base install.
The menu problem could be a Kubuntu or early plasma issue. Either way, not something I've ever seen in Windows.
Hey, thanks for being the voice of reason in this thread!
Windows is, by all means, not a perfect OS. But people claiming that it's "easier to use" for the average user are just detached from reality.
More like the "Tech Wizards" like Linus from LTT have the elitist attitude of being good with Windows means they should automagically be "Tech Wizards" with every other OS. Or the elitist attitude of just expecting the hardware you bought that's Windows compatible should be Linux compatible or it's a failure of Linux. No body does that when switching from Windows to Mac or Mac to Windows. When upgrading to the latest version of Windows and suddenly your hardware is not compatible anymore, nobody says, OMG all of Windows is a failure. It's Microsoft's vendor lock-in strategy that has forced companies to spend their engineering dollars primarily on Windows.
I think people are pretty lucky today, that there is a high probability that their hardware will be supported out of the box with Linux. It never used to be that way. You just bought Linux compatible hardware, just like people bought Windows compatible hardware and Mac compatible hardware. If it wasn't for the BSOD situation in Windows caused by crappy Windows drivers that forced Microsoft to develop and enforce WHQL certification. OEM manufacturers wouldn't have all unified around the same IP's for the components in their machines. This allowed the IP vendor to do the Windows and Linux driver support. With out that, all these Windows users would be stuck with Windows10.
So how about a these "tech wizards" take a bite of humble pie, learn the Linux way of doing things and go to their local LUG and get help, so it is "that easy". So they spend 20 minutes getting setup and learning the ropes instead of assuming they know everything and expecting everything to be done the Windows way. That's what we did, twenty and thirty years ago.