hanekam @ hanekam @lemmy.world

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2 yr. ago

My first quote is from a group of Harvard students immediately following the attack on Israel. The second is from Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the President of Turkey. Do heads of state count?

I don't understand how your comment relates to mine. Do you believe that because I consider a cessation of hostilities where Hamas keeps their hostages a victory for Hamas, that I mean to say that rescuing hostages is the scope of Israel's campaign?

It clearly isn't. Israel intends to destroy Hamas and are appallingly callous about the collateral damage they cause in the process

A ceasefire where Hamas gets to keep their hostages is a huge Hamas victory. Advocating for something which gives Hamas a huge victory will be interpreted by some as support for Hamas.

These demonstrations are full of Palestinian flags, without an Israeli one in sight. It's hard to argue against them being partisan

The issue is nobody is saying Hamas attacking civilians are justified

They do, but they word it like this:

We hold the Israeli regime entirely responsible for all unfolding violence

And this:

Hamas is not a terror organization, it is an organization of liberation, of mujahedeen, who fight to protect their land and citizens.

Isn't this just typical of how young people are?

Do you know what either of those terms mean?

Israel kills more civilians than Palestinian orgs do. Palestinian orgs target civilians in a way that Israel simply doesn't. Focusing on Israeli excesses without acknowledging how many Palestinians really, actually, want to exterminate all jews is just as disingenuous as focusing on Israeli security concerns without acknowledging the deprivations they impose on Palestinians.

In danger of repeating myself, no moral high ground to be found.

It is a core feature of most religions that

1. There are hidden forces at work in the world
2. The workings of these hidden forces are more important than the processes we can see, and follow a grand plan

This belief is strikingly similar to conspiratorial worldviews, and the likelihood of subscribing to QAnon and other conspiracy theories rises substantially with increasing religiosity.

They're not the same thing, but they are definitely related

What do you think Israel should be doing?

You're pretty far off the deep end to call the present campaign unprovoked.

Disproportionate, bloody, horrible, inhuman, this you can say, but to claim that Israel wasn't attacked and hasn't suffered is frankly insane

If this is your yardstick, Palestinians are much much more likely to support killing Israelis "just because" than the other way around. There's really no moral high ground in this conflict

What you said was that modern conflicts are upheld by Western activity. I'm trying to illustrate that you will usually have to dismiss the proximate causes, and sometimes construe very stilted and tenuous explanations, to make that statement fit reality.

America is very powerful and has a presence over much of the world. In virtue of this power, their involvement, or lack of involvement, is always an important factor in conflicts. This does not mean that they cause those conflicts.

Iran funds an insurgency, Saudi intervenes, and it's all the fault of the West. I see.

Do you believe there are significant conflicts in the world that aren't a result of Western plotting? How guilty do you consider the West of the civil war in Myanmar, for example?

Do you in all seriousness consider the current conflict in Yemen a Western plot?

In Norway we tried. We got overuled by the European Courts. A bunch of foster parents threw in the towel as a result, and hundreds of children were deprived of a stable home environment.

Big win for the rights of abusive parents though!

Modern conflict in Asia/Middle East, (...) is largely upheld by western activity

That's a funny way to spell Iran

London has Hyde and Regent's Parks. Paris has the Bois de Boulogne, Berlni has the great Tiergarten. Big parks are a common feature of cities.

the logical consequence of people living inside the living hell that Israel turned the Gaza strip into

Which could be considered a logical consequence of Hamas using every last bit of breathing room they get to launch fresh attacks on Israeli civilians. As this last round of terror well attests. As you say, taking sides is impossible when everyone regularly steps over the line, and if we're to hope to be decent people ourselves, we should unequivocally condemn violence, oppression, murder & terror regardless of perpetrator.

Agriculture too. We'd have to massively cut tariffs and subsidies and very few farms would survive the transition.