Are we all "Anti-AI Trolls"? Enforcement of instance rules and community standards.
Are we all "Anti-AI Trolls"? Enforcement of instance rules and community standards.
I hope I'm not exposing myself to some kind of retailation, but here it goes.
It has been brought to my attention in a totally unrelated discussion that moderator(s) of !stable_diffusion_witches@lemmy.dbzer0.com and !stable_diffusion_mycology@lemmy.dbzer0.com hosted here on db0 seemingly randomly ban users (including me) which had never ever even interacted with the community as being "Anti-AI Trolls", "Neoliberals" or other names. Some other users are banned for "Vote Manipulation" (what does that even mean?! you still addicted to reddit's karma or what?).
While I totally don't mind these communities, content served by them and their rules as stated in the sidebar, I somehow found myself caring for what lemmy.dbzer0.com represents in the fediverse. I am of strong stance that such behaviour like described above (proactively banning random users) stands in a potential violation of The Golden Rules which are the foundation of this instance. This starts to be noticeable and brings negative perception of our instance.
I claim that such behaviour is in contradiction of rules calling for cooperative participation in the community by creating "closed garden" of only the most trusted users by the moderation where noone else can participate. The rules under which someone is banned are not clear, bans are not directly connected to any particular user comment and/or action.
I call for the community to voice their oppinion about this matter and if the community agrees with my objection to such behaviour as described above, I call for a proper action to be taken to enforce the community standards.
Thank you.
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I agree that random blocking sours the reputation.
The only thought I can conjure is perhaps a mod got pissed about a post and banned everyone from a thread, including commentators defending our even just neutrally discussing AI.
I think more detail, perhaps direct comment from the mod(s) involved, is warranted.
As to "vote manipulation", brigading or mass vote blasts are against the rules but harder to pass muster on a bit.
Again, the mod should have a chance to respond for sure.
The mod in question is apparently convinced that Lemmy is full of "anti-AI trolls" who are planning to brigade their communities with mass downvotes, accuse them of pedophilia, send death threats, and all kinds of stuff.
“From the moment I started the [redacted] community here people have been brigading it trying to suppress it, and had I not had the sense to ban the droves of anti-AI trolls who come to downvote it into oblivion. They probably would be continuing to do so in insanely large volume. A lot of the users who come to downvote do so with empty no content accounts, but a lot are also trolls from the !fuck_AI@lemmy.world community. I’ve also received a fair amount of harassment including threats and bad faith accusations from it like people saying I’m a pedophile or saying I’m pretending to be nonbinary over the fact that I like and use genAI. Really awful behavior that has no place on this instance of this community.”
-https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/43560521
And so, the only solution is to cast about for random people all over the Lemmyverse (including me, well known hater of all things AI) and send out bans like stray beads of spittle flying from a drunk politician's mouth. Obviously. It's the only way to keep us safe.
I feel like it's a toss-up whether this person is stirring drama on purpose (trying to create "pro-AI" and "anti-AI" camps and instigate disagreements between them), or whether they've just got some screws loose and like to paint themselves as the victim of a vast conspiracy and also enjoy using the "ban" button that comes with their UI. IDK. It's not really that big a deal, honestly, I feel like it could be solved in a day or so with some frank conversations and openness on all sides. I'm not sure why so little energy is going towards that, and why so much energy is going towards deciding which specific strictures we're going to have the software enforce on all of us going forward and who the enemy needs to be.
Something is weird about it, that's all I can really say.
spoiler
And for reference, here's someone being a transphobe to zir because the internet just can't help it to not spam hate to people online.
Edit: another account was just made to harass Mystic: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/u/MoarCuntsPlz@sh.itjust.works
That has literally nothing at all to do with banning me. We might as well talk about banning you, because that user said that. That's as much relationship that comment has to the subject of OP's post.
(I also think it's sort of convenient that a new user popped up and started making cartoonishly harassing comments about the person we're talking about, thus propping up the "mods need the ability to ban totally random people, because look at this person he's so bad look at what a terrible thing he did, I 100% guarantee you that the mod banning random people is always the victim and never the harasser no matter what they ever do" narrative.)
I reported that comment, as I'm sure some other people did. You do understand that has literally nothing at all to do with banning other users who haven't done anything that that person did?
Am I the weird one in this conversation? I'm having this sort of Alice in Wonderland feeling here.
Well I haven't had my coffee this morning, so maybe I'm being weird.
But I wanted to at least document that in this very thread there's people harassing zir, because zir exists online.
I don't think it's odd to think there's users targeting harassment them, when examples pop up without being asked.
Edit: An account was made about 15 minutes ago to harass Mystic: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/u/MoarCuntsPlz@sh.itjust.works
I don't think it's odd to think there's users targeting harassment them, when examples pop up without being asked.
You know what? Let's try some Socratic teaching.
The people harassing the mod should be:
- Banned
- Not banned
The people not harassing the mod or doing anything wrong should be:
- Banned
- Not banned
I feel like this should be an easy test, but let's see what you come up with.
I'm a mod in a community that some hate, we automatically ban anyone who visits (or trips over it on the front page) and only down votes too many things
Some of them have felt hard done by, but they don't want to be unbanned, they really don't want to see our content
I wonder if the op was really just db0 being just a little more trigger happy. The "nothing" might have been down voting something that quickly attracted tens of down votes in quick succession, causing them to be mistaken for brigading. Votes cluster in time.
I agree they shouldn't be banned when they aren't harassing.
I think we just don't agree what constitutes harassment.
Sometimes it's obvious, like today and a month back at Mystic. A user insulting directly, or spinning up a bot to impersonate and say horrid shit about them.
Sometimes it's basically digitally stalking communities like Hexbear does. Lefty Memes on here has Hexbear users that pounce on the comments if you call out simping for dictators isn't exactly any good for anyone.
Maybe I need my coffee and I'm autistic as fuck at times, but you're not my enemy here, I just find it odd that people (not you here) don't like a community, and instead of avoiding it, get involved with it in a bad way.
Is that every user banned in the Stable communities? I can't say for certain. Mystic has data on zir end that has vote manipulation, and documenting the harassment.
I'll admit that I might be biased, I might be dumb here, I might be not fully awake or picking up context clues. But I've seen the shit flung at Mystic for just having a community online where they don't spread it outside of that, and to some that's a crime that demands becoming a lolcow for Lemmy.
Mystic has responded on the db0 community feedback, as has db0 himself about this. Db0 has no issues with this issue. Mystic doesn't come in here as no one expects the data zir provides, because they want to be unbanned despite not wanting to interact with the communities.
I'm not trying to shut you up, and I hope you're doing the same. I'm just trying to say I understand and sympathize with Mystic here. You saw today just one of the things people will do to zir just because they post content online.
Is every mod action there fair? Fuck if i know, I'm not one of the mods there. I don't like being an mod on Lemmy, I made this account to avoid that when I abandoned the last time I was.
I don't wish to keep this going I don't think either one of us is going to suddenly change our views here. We could go for hours or days on end, and go nowhere with it.
I'm going to make my coffee and try to be with my friends this morning. This is not a "haha I win, I'm leaving now" this is me explaining why I'm not coming back for a debate for today at least.
I'm not trying to shut you up, and I hope you're doing the same. I'm just trying to say I understand and sympathize with Mystic here. You saw today just one of the things people will do to zir just because they post content online.
Is every mod action there fair? Fuck if i know, I'm not one of the mods there. I don't like being an mod on Lemmy, I made this account to avoid that when I abandoned the last time I was.
I don't wish to keep this going I don't think either one of us is going to suddenly change our views here. We could go for hours or days on end, and go nowhere with it.
I'm going to make my coffee and try to be with my friends this morning. This is not a "haha I win, I'm leaving now" this is me explaining why I'm not coming back for a debate for today at least.
Yeah, I mean it's fine. I'm not trying to "debate," I'm trying to get you to grasp the point that I was banned for literally no reason at all. I've never participated in that community, I'm not an "anti-AI troll," I'm not harassing them by any stretch of the possible imagination. My only participation even adjacent to that is sometimes from my previous account upvoting content from the main Stable Diffusion community because I like it. I sometimes talk negatively about some types of AI, as it happens I have some recent comments talking positively about it, but I don't really have any kind of tribal affiliation either for or against.
I don't know why you keep bringing stuff that other people have done into the conversation, and trying to triangulate this thing where because this moderator was harassed by somebody else, that means they have a right to accuse anybody they want of anything they want. That doesn't make any sense to me, I think it's a toxic pattern that should be called out when it happens. That's the only reason I care to any degree about any of this. I am unlikely to participate in any of the places I was banned from, overall it's fine. My point is just that falling into this thinking where we have to be in tribes and one person from one tribe was a victim and so they lashed out at a bunch of other people and it's okay because they're a victim, that's wrong.
The mod in question is apparently convinced that Lemmy is full of “anti-AI trolls” who are planning to brigade their communities with mass downvotes, accuse them of pedophilia, send death threats, and all kinds of stuff.
Well yeah, there are bots made in zir username that were horrid and mocking zir because zir mods a space on the internet. Calling zir a pig, misgendering, saying pigs are tasty, etc.
What would you call that if not harassing? Our admins can confirm this.
But this happened to me as well. Haven't heard of any bots in my name.
Me neither, I haven't had a dedicated hater that much yet. I know some people outright hate me even if we agree on the same issue at the moment.
haven't had a dedicated hater
I'll hate you. If you want.
Nah, but I appreciate the offer. :3
Okay! I just know how important it can be to be hated sometimes. I don't know your needs, but i wouldn't want to deny anyone that if it's one of them.
Hate the game, not the player.
But what if the player has a deep hate shaped hole in their heart, and just needs a good enemy for a while? That's why i make that offer. So many people will offer to be your friend, but some go their whole lives without coherent enemies to hate, to plot and brood about, to hone themselves against, and i think that's really sad.
Maybe don't be such an insensitive jerk.
I don't see how banning random third party people is going to be a solution to that. Actually, I would expect it to make things worse, since anyone who wanted to make one of those bots can still do all of that exactly as much or as little as they could before (and obviously be banned for it exactly as they would be able to before), but also she's going to get additional people irritated at her because she's now lashing out at uninvolved parties.
I don't see how banning a community of people who are more than willing to spin up bots that impersonate and harass users, hate the content of those communities, who claim they don't want to be involved and are currently begging to be banned to save their eyeballs, is doing harm.
If people don't like the content, they can stay away from it. I don't like Tankie content so I don't go into their communities saying they're all morons so I can be banned and then say "see? They're not tolerant of my ideas."
Also 11 up votes in 2 minutes is kinda funny.I didn't do any of the things you said, nothing even close to it, and I got banned. That's what I mean by "uninvolved parties." I'm sure I am not the only one.
My apologies, you didn't but others in this thread from Hexbear and previous posts have said "Ban me, I don't wanna see it anyways."
This is such a weird conversation.
"Your honor, we're asking for the ability to send this man to prison."
"But he hasn't done anything..."
"Yes, but others have, and they've sent death threats to the prosecutor, too. They're the worst. I rest my case."
What we are talking about is the systematic and ongoing harassment of this mod by anti genAI trolls, who are perfectly happy to use tranphobic abuse, misgendering, threats of violence, calls to suicide, and any number of other hateful tactics to bully and harass the mod, simply for having the temerity to like genAI as a hobby.
Mystic has adopted proactive bans to protect zir mental health as much as anything else. The exact same type of harassment happens towards blajah users, just for existing. To be honest, I suspect some of the anti-trans trolls have changed focus to trolling about genAI, because this mod also happens to be trans. So it's a 2x bonus target for them :(
I'd be more concerned if instance bans were being handed out like candy for downvoting, but they aren't. They are nearly all community bans from just a small handful of communities. Is it really a big deal getting a random ban from a community you don't particularly care about in order to help protect the mod of that community from a harassment campaign? Since you like your Socrates, which one of those two things is worse? Which one is more likely to lead to self harm or psychological damage?
Unfortunately, some folks get caught up in these bans where it turns out they were just going about their day. I can understand people getting upset with copping a ban they feel they didn't deserve. But if you send a quick DM to the mod explaining your case, I'm pretty sure they will be willing to unban you.
I've been trying to disentangle from this whole thing, since I feel like I've reiterated what I had to say about it at some length for people who are interested to hear it, but I'll address this:
Is it really a big deal getting a random ban from a community you don't particularly care about in order to help protect the mod of that community from a harassment campaign? Since you like your Socrates, which one of those two things is worse? Which one is more likely to lead to self harm or psychological damage?
Instigating balkanization and random attacks on random users, and then justifying it by getting all histrionic about how some totally different person did something horrible (and, obviously, was banned for it) and somehow that needs to attach to me and OP, because reasons, is harmful. It is itself a harassment campaign. It also, as I keep pointing out, has literally nothing at all to do with protecting this moderator from the original actual harassment campaign. It's like "stop and frisk." It's like throwing all the communists in prison because one allegedly set fire to the Reichstag. It won't solve the problem, it's just an excuse to attack.
I don't care about the ban itself, certainly not enough to speak directly to the mod in question and risk being attacked for "harassing" them by sending them DMs. They're welcome to weigh in here if they want, I'm sure they're aware of the conversation. My concern is with the underlying logic and people doubling down on it here. Picking fights with random people for no reason at all, declaring them as enemies because of a vague alleged association with some enemy "community," and encouraging tribalization of the space into a series of little "with us or against us" houses because of the actions of a handful of dickheads, hurts all of us. Making excuses for it, because the tribe of the person doing the balkanization happens to line up with your tribe, is also I would argue actually hurting their mental health also in the long run. You're missing an opportunity to call them out on behaviors which if they're doing them in real life will hurt them a lot more than anything that can happen just with the keyboard and screens.
I get the idea that they've been hurt by these attacks and they feel like they need to start lashing out and everyone becomes an enemy who does anything even vaguely (not really) similar, and so if they can throw enough preemptive accusations at anything that even reminds them of the other thing, then they'll feel safe. If that is what is happening, then I get it. I think the solution, like I already said, would be more of an open dialogue with that person. Honestly I think maybe the people they're close to (i.e. not me, who's already classed as an "enemy" somehow) should be making sure they feel supported and like people are going to go to bat for them against any trolls or attackers who come their way. I'm sure there are plenty of drive-by "lol AI sucks" comments coming into these communities from time to time. If they feel like they're alone and already vulnerable and then it gets coupled with more vicious attacks once people sense that they're vulnerable (which, again, this is all instigating 10 times more of), then yeah that can be really distressing. I get it. If that's what is going on. So just be vigorous against the actual problem.
If I were the type of malicious person who liked to throw insults and create new accounts to sling mud at someone who I knew it would really work effectively to upset, then getting banned from these random communities and then finding out the whole drama would definitely put them 100% on my radar as a worthwhile target to attack. I think a good conversation with the mod helping them understand some of how this stuff functions and making sure they know that the db0 admins will be in their corner when something does inevitably happen would help them to feel actually better about it and be able to be in a better mental state, where what they're currently doing will do the opposite. But also, the flip side of that is protecting other people against them, making sure that you're not just feeding into any particular attack that someone who's in the club feels like making at any time against someone who's not in it.
Does that make sense? Maybe not, that's just how I see it.
It does make sense and thanks for explaining your position and showing some compassion.
I just don't know 100% what the best thing to do here is. We're all just kinda sick of the constant trolling. And while I acknowledge the bans have caused some drama, most of the yptb posts about them, with a couple of exceptions, have turned out to be from some of the worst offenders.
I really think a lot of this problem could be easily engineered away by turning off downvotes from external instances or something similar. But the way lemmy development is going, I'm not holding my breath for those options. If we end up getting a piefed instance, I'll think I'll be recommending all the genAI communities move there.
I do think we probably need to have an admin team discussion about downvote bans in general and set some firmer guidelines for mods.
It is weird that people are asking to be banned by the mod team so they can avoid going to places they don't like, I agree. Shit is God damn weird.